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hspeck

Squeaky front brakes and non biting parking brakes

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I am using PNM 4 pot at the front with Mintex 1144 pads.

The rear is PNM 2 pot, and the parking brake is using the spot brake pads.

1. The front brake squeaks! Especially so when I am slowing down at the lights. Anyone has used other pads on PNM's and have better experience? Are the EBC Green Stuff a better alternative?

2. The parking brake is as good as non existent, even after replacing them with new pads. The PNM is using spot brake pads. Anyone has better alterantive for the parking brake? Thanks.

This is the spot brake pad ... the size of the contact patch is maybe less than 2.5cm?? http://www.pnmparts.co.uk/esprit/esprit-na-turbo-se-88-92/esprit-na-turbo-se-88-92-j/lotus-rear-handbrake-billet4-pads-2200

Thanks.

 

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hi Changes, I have posted in that thread too, but seems that the only way is to replace the hub? Or maybe the bell? My problem is that the parts are not readily available in my country.

Also, there was no conclusion wrt the non functioning parking brake.

thanks

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I’ve had some  success with the squeal issue on the fronts by making sure the wheel bearings are tightend properly and changing to carbon Lorraine pads. These pads are awesome but a little pricey.

as for the spot pad handbrake I’m afraid to say it’s Just rubbish!!!

you can spend hours adjusting it and if your lucky you can get it to pass an mot but it will never be good. Only option is to change the rear caliper totally, add Brembo rears acting as a handbrake only, or shell out for the electric handbrake conversion.

 

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Yes as Chris said.. The rear are rubbish, never worked properly..  I had to set them tight to just scrape through an MOT..  To be fair fitting separate caliper for park brake  is the way to go. 

On the front its a lottery , I found the new custom bells I  machined up worked very well ... I am using with 1144's with only the occasional little squeak when warming the brakes.. ..  Maybe you can get someone to make you some or change to later hubs..  But be aware the concentric section on later hubs is smaller so wheel fit needs to be watched.   

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13 hours ago, chris said:

I’ve had some  success with the squeal issue on the fronts by making sure the wheel bearings are tightend properly and changing to carbon Lorraine pads. These pads are awesome but a little pricey.

as for the spot pad handbrake I’m afraid to say it’s Just rubbish!!!

you can spend hours adjusting it and if your lucky you can get it to pass an mot but it will never be good. Only option is to change the rear caliper totally, add Brembo rears acting as a handbrake only, or shell out for the electric handbrake conversion.

 

Thanks Chris, I have tried to tighten the front best I could. I think I will be interested in the Lorraine pads. Can I know what is the part number? I regret not making a drawing and measurement of the 1144 pads before I fitted them.

The electric handbrake is from Hi-Spec?

Thanks.

13 hours ago, CHANGES said:

Yes as Chris said.. The rear are rubbish, never worked properly..  I had to set them tight to just scrape through an MOT..  To be fair fitting separate caliper for park brake  is the way to go. 

On the front its a lottery , I found the new custom bells I  machined up worked very well ... I am using with 1144's with only the occasional little squeak when warming the brakes.. ..  Maybe you can get someone to make you some or change to later hubs..  But be aware the concentric section on later hubs is smaller so wheel fit needs to be watched.   

I have tried to add in a bracket for the cable at the rear calipers hoping they will bite better but apparently it does not seem to work.. hahaha ... any recommendation for tried and tested rear calipers for the parking brake?

I saw your bell in the other thread, maybe I will ask the machine shop to make a pair. Do you have the dimensions? Or is it just a duplicate of the PNM's without the fancy design?

Thanks.

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Ok.. so I was told to try anti-squeal lube before I consider changing the pads...

anyone has any experience with the lube/paste??

thanks. 

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I always use a ceramic based paste sure as Mintex Ceratec or Permatec 24125 and don't have an issue with squealing. The effectiveness of a brake lubricant to counteract squealing will of course depend on whether the noise is caused by the brake pad against the caliper or the disc. Do not use copperslip or similar as those type of greases tend to rot the caliper dust and guide seals.

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I was talking to the top man at HiSpec earlier this year, when I returned some Mintex pads that had inclusions. He said that as a general rule, the more friction the pad generates, the more noise is likely to occur.

I'm trying out some MIntex HD pads at the moment, they don't squeak as much as the M1144, but they don't have as much bite, either. Actually, the EBC Yellowstuff was very good, and I may well revert to that setup when time permits, but they too squealed without the 3M pads, and were better with them fitted.

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When I ran my original Mintex 1144 pads I fitted anti squeal pads On the back of the pads and lube everywhere else, however it still squelled the place down like a Tantrumy 2 year old!! 😂

I got my cl pads from hispec, they are listed on their website with a part number. I will also check the box later today to see if I can confirm the numbers for you just in case you decide to swap them out.

the electronic handbrake is a hispec unit with pnm making the bracket to fit it to the car. It’s pricey though with the hispec unit being approx £600!!

Personally I can’t make up my mind whether to go for the electric kit, add a set of Brembo’s or maybe see if there’s something clever I can do with hydraulic assistance??????🤔

 

 

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2 hours ago, chris said:

Personally I can’t make up my mind whether to go for the electric kit, add a set of Brembo’s or maybe see if there’s something clever I can do with hydraulic assistance??????🤔

Thats what i eventually did .  

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On 29/11/2018 at 01:37, hspeck said:

I saw your bell in the other thread, maybe I will ask the machine shop to make a pair. Do you have the dimensions? Or is it just a duplicate of the PNM's without the fancy design?

Thanks.

Not sure if mine would fit your disc's I am running bigger disc's with six pot's now.   I believe the squeal is resonated through the PNM design bell.  As Chillidoggy  the more grip the pad gives the more it squeals.  I never found anti squeal paste or patches worked with that PNM set up..   I think you would be best finding a brake specialist local to you who can carry out the manufacture and fitment based on my design format to fit yours..  The machining has to be very accurate and caliper bracket made to match..  The problem with doing a solid version of the PNM one could be warping under heat stress causing brake judder..   Pete at PNM did offer a solid version when we discussed the problem , but I felt it was a compromise and  chose to go my own way..     At least you know there is a solution.   

Here are some more pics of the reverse bell fitting before/ after HPIM0587.thumb.JPG.bef9bca55063b39a4e56bce70e19b74e.JPG   HPIM0591.thumb.JPG.7ab520a7baa4250f878888ea16789f2e.JPG

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Dave, do you have any pics of your rear brake setup mate? Is it utilising the Brembo caliper for the handbrake? 

Did you use a separate resovoir or plumb it into the existing system?

i did have a brief look at hydraulic handbrake systems (rally style) but not convinced those tiny spot pads would cope + the associated issues with mot.

although I like the idea of the electronic option, I don’t want to remove the handbrake lever totally and I hate stuff that doesn’t do anything!!!!

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Got any ideas for a deployment system for those??😂

i can’t get out of the car quick enough for that!! Not sure if that’s age or mileage on my part. 

  • Haha 1

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Most of the squeal issues I had were at low speed, typically pulling up at traffic lights or going down the ramp to the parking area. I think the more instantaneous bite on the carbon pads helped to significantly reduce if not totally cure the noise that the bell housing was making. That said I’ve just fitted a solid 325mm disc to see how it works out. It’s quite heavy so may still get a custom disc made with solid bell housing using the 310’s as a template. Started to get fixated on getting the biggest disc possible which might be overkill and make daily driving tedious.

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3 hours ago, chris said:

Dave, do you have any pics of your rear brake setup mate? Is it utilising the Brembo caliper for the handbrake? 

Did you use a separate resovoir or plumb it into the existing system?

i did have a brief look at hydraulic handbrake systems (rally style) but not convinced those tiny spot pads would cope + the associated issues with mot.

although I like the idea of the electronic option, I don’t want to remove the handbrake lever totally and I hate stuff that doesn’t do anything!!!!

I will PM you some info.. 

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On 30/11/2018 at 19:57, sailorbob said:

I always use a ceramic based paste sure as Mintex Ceratec or Permatec 24125 and don't have an issue with squealing. The effectiveness of a brake lubricant to counteract squealing will of course depend on whether the noise is caused by the brake pad against the caliper or the disc. Do not use copperslip or similar as those type of greases tend to rot the caliper dust and guide seals.

 

22 hours ago, Chillidoggy said:

I was talking to the top man at HiSpec earlier this year, when I returned some Mintex pads that had inclusions. He said that as a general rule, the more friction the pad generates, the more noise is likely to occur.

I'm trying out some MIntex HD pads at the moment, they don't squeak as much as the M1144, but they don't have as much bite, either. Actually, the EBC Yellowstuff was very good, and I may well revert to that setup when time permits, but they too squealed without the 3M pads, and were better with them fitted.

I have asked my brake shop, and they do have some anti-squeal paste, but not the 3M pads. As it is a fairly easy job, have arranged to try them out next week,

8 hours ago, chris said:

When I ran my original Mintex 1144 pads I fitted anti squeal pads On the back of the pads and lube everywhere else, however it still squelled the place down like a Tantrumy 2 year old!! 😂

I got my cl pads from hispec, they are listed on their website with a part number. I will also check the box later today to see if I can confirm the numbers for you just in case you decide to swap them out.

the electronic handbrake is a hispec unit with pnm making the bracket to fit it to the car. It’s pricey though with the hispec unit being approx £600!!

Personally I can’t make up my mind whether to go for the electric kit, add a set of Brembo’s or maybe see if there’s something clever I can do with hydraulic assistance??????🤔

 

 

I have emailed PNM and Hispec regarding the electronic brakes, but yet to hear from either of them...

Appreciate if you can find the part number for the cl pads. I believe it should be one of these?

https://www.hispecmotorsport.co.uk/billet-4-pads.html

5 hours ago, CHANGES said:

Not sure if mine would fit your disc's I am running bigger disc's with six pot's now.   I believe the squeal is resonated through the PNM design bell.  As Chillidoggy  the more grip the pad gives the more it squeals.  I never found anti squeal paste or patches worked with that PNM set up..   I think you would be best finding a brake specialist local to you who can carry out the manufacture and fitment based on my design format to fit yours..  The machining has to be very accurate and caliper bracket made to match..  The problem with doing a solid version of the PNM one could be warping under heat stress causing brake judder..   Pete at PNM did offer a solid version when we discussed the problem , but I felt it was a compromise and  chose to go my own way..     At least you know there is a solution.   

Here are some more pics of the reverse bell fitting before/ after HPIM0587.thumb.JPG.bef9bca55063b39a4e56bce70e19b74e.JPG   HPIM0591.thumb.JPG.7ab520a7baa4250f878888ea16789f2e.JPG

Thanks Changes, i will need to check if any of my local brake shop  are willing to take up the job.. incidentally PNM was the one who suggested I try the anti-squeal pad..

5 hours ago, chris said:

Dave, do you have any pics of your rear brake setup mate? Is it utilising the Brembo caliper for the handbrake? 

Did you use a separate resovoir or plumb it into the existing system?

i did have a brief look at hydraulic handbrake systems (rally style) but not convinced those tiny spot pads would cope + the associated issues with mot.

although I like the idea of the electronic option, I don’t want to remove the handbrake lever totally and I hate stuff that doesn’t do anything!!!!

you can always leave the handbrake lever and use it together with the electronic brake.. hahahhaha..

i was actually wondering if i could replace the handbrake button with a electronic push button if i was to use the electronic rear brake...

4 hours ago, chris said:

Most of the squeal issues I had were at low speed, typically pulling up at traffic lights or going down the ramp to the parking area. I think the more instantaneous bite on the carbon pads helped to significantly reduce if not totally cure the noise that the bell housing was making. That said I’ve just fitted a solid 325mm disc to see how it works out. It’s quite heavy so may still get a custom disc made with solid bell housing using the 310’s as a template. Started to get fixated on getting the biggest disc possible which might be overkill and make daily driving tedious.

I have the same problem.. the brake squeals only when I am at a low speed...

55 minutes ago, chris said:

Hspeck, regarding your handbrake, what have you adjusted so far, anything or nothing mate? 

I have replaced with new pads and spring, also fabricated a bracket so the cable can sit more squarely hoping the brake will bite better, but it did not seem to have any effect..

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The electronic handbrake  - last time I spoke to Pete, he has not yet made the bracket for them, there's not enough call for them as yet, apparently.

The caliper is available from HiSpec.

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The PNM 2-piece kit for the later cars uses a solid mounting bell, not like the earlier cars version with all the holes. I bought the single, larger, solid cast iron disc for the 321mm conversion, and use a plain disc rather than vented or grooved, as I wanted to keep noise and dust down. They still produce both noise and dust, though!

So far in testing, I've used the original Lotus Brembo set-up with Brembo pads, the PNM 6-piston, 321mm fronts with Yellowstuff and then Mintex M1144 pads. Both those pads pulled up really well, but arguably the Yellowstuff was superior. Both squealed, mainly when (but not restricted to), coming to a halt. The addition of the 3m sticky pads to the back of the pads quietened them down, but not completely. It is interesting to note that when my Yellowstuff pads were initially supplied, they had thin, stainless steel shims glued to them. After a while, I noticed they had become displaced, so I called EBC to be told they don't fit them any longer, and to simply take the shims off. I'd like to think the noise increased after that.

Earlier this year, I fitted the PNM 321mm solid discs but with the original Brembo calipers spaced off with Pete's brackets, and original Brembo pads. No squealing, but they didn't pull up anywhere near as well as the Yellowstuff or the M1144. With the same Brembo set-up, I'm now trying Mintex M1230 pads, which is a heavy-duty road compound. So far, noise has been virtually nil, except for the odd squeal just as the car comes to a halt, but only on odd occasions. They're similar to the Brembo pads, BUT, they don't have the stopping power of the Yellowstuff or the M1144.

Next year, I will probably revert back to the Monster 6 calipers and Yellowstuff, but am still looking around for other pads to try out, and I may decide to fit the 2-piece kit, yet to be decided.

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part Number for cl rc5+ pads is:

4145

RC5+

FT0094145-100

if ordering through hispec you will want the 285mm version.

I’ve been out to look at mine today and noticed that the inboard spot pad is very worn which will not help the hand brake alignment and efficiency. If yours are new then the other option is to try and adjust them to be as close as possible. This can be done at the handbrake end and at the caliper end through the bar that connects the 2 sides together.  I’ve also researched it a bit this morning and another forum states that you can tighten up the grubscrews that act on the back of the spotpads which they reckon improved things. 

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1 hour ago, chris said:

I’ve been out to look at mine today and noticed that the inboard spot pad is very worn which will not help the hand brake alignment and efficiency. If yours are new then the other option is to try and adjust them to be as close as possible. This can be done at the handbrake end and at the caliper end through the bar that connects the 2 sides together.  I’ve also researched it a bit this morning and another forum states that you can tighten up the grubscrews that act on the back of the spotpads which they reckon improved things. 

Basically the spot pads should not ware. . They only do because they are adjusted to tight. Its common when struggling to get them to work..  The surface area is to small for the size of the Esprit.. ..  They may just hold it when set up well , but they will always struggle on the MOT rollers... 

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That’s good to know Dave.  I don’t think that I’m going to waste any more time on trying to get this system to work properly especially as it is unlikely to ever be as good as it needs to be. Therefore the long term fix for me is probably going to have to be the addition of a separate set of calipers that act as a handbrake only. Once I’ve decided what size of rear disc I am going to pair with my new fronts then I may as well take the opportunity while I have the disc off to install the lot.

In the meantime, as the spot pads are approx £20 a set I’m happy to keep chewing through them until I implement the proper fix.

hspeck: It would be interesting to hear any feedback/your experiences if you decide to go down the electric route.

cheers

chris

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On ‎01‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 23:10, Chillidoggy said:

The electronic handbrake  - last time I spoke to Pete, he has not yet made the bracket for them, there's not enough call for them as yet, apparently.

The caliper is available from HiSpec.

Thanks for the info. I also have saw the caliper at HiSpec site, but am not sure how I can install it in the car as there does not seem to be any schematics..

On ‎02‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 02:41, chris said:

part Number for cl rc5+ pads is:

4145

RC5+

FT0094145-100

if ordering through hispec you will want the 285mm version.

I’ve been out to look at mine today and noticed that the inboard spot pad is very worn which will not help the hand brake alignment and efficiency. If yours are new then the other option is to try and adjust them to be as close as possible. This can be done at the handbrake end and at the caliper end through the bar that connects the 2 sides together.  I’ve also researched it a bit this morning and another forum states that you can tighten up the grubscrews that act on the back of the spotpads which they reckon improved things. 

Thanks chris.

I looked at the rear brake caliper today too. I wanted to take a photo of the bracket that we made for the handbrake cable but was not able to as the bracket was at the back of the caliper and I will have to remove the wheels and jack the rear up which I was not able to do today.

However, I realized that I could pull the handbrake harder, and the car holds in a slight (very slight) slope. I had a little difficulty disengaging the handbrake after that though... only after a few very hard yanking and pressing the knob did it release...

On ‎02‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 12:51, chris said:

That’s good to know Dave.  I don’t think that I’m going to waste any more time on trying to get this system to work properly especially as it is unlikely to ever be as good as it needs to be. Therefore the long term fix for me is probably going to have to be the addition of a separate set of calipers that act as a handbrake only. Once I’ve decided what size of rear disc I am going to pair with my new fronts then I may as well take the opportunity while I have the disc off to install the lot.

In the meantime, as the spot pads are approx £20 a set I’m happy to keep chewing through them until I implement the proper fix.

hspeck: It would be interesting to hear any feedback/your experiences if you decide to go down the electric route.

cheers

chris

I have friends who have hydraulic handbrakes installed in their cars for gymkhana and drifting purpose... they usually have 2 set of calipers, 1 for the usual handbrake and another for when they drift or participate in gymkhanas... I will be looking at this option before I consider the electronic brake calipers, although I really dislike the idea of having 2 handbrake levers in the car ...

If I do go the electronic brake setup I will post here too ...

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