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hspeck

X180 2.2 NA ignition timing

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13 minutes ago, Gis said:

Agree. Cut him some slack, there’s progress. It’s been a learning curve for most of us. 

Head to the Lotus Esprit FB page and see how much help I have sympathetically given before you pre-judge. 

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2 hours ago, Sparky said:

I suggest we already know the aux sprocket is misaligned, as the distributor can only be rotated to achieve 20BTDC. Removing the cap is a load of aggro to prove what's obvious.

Removal of cap is no aggro whatsoever on an NA - two clips?   Esprit's don't generally respond well to assumptions

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That's not an assumption; it's common sense.


British Ambassador to Florida, New York, Denmark and Newfoundland.  And Sweden.

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Oooh, let's trade clever comments.


British Ambassador to Florida, New York, Denmark and Newfoundland.  And Sweden.

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Yeah I know I'll get outgunned on that one....   But for the sake of 2 clips I would personally choose to prove the theory.  If you think that's bad advice, so be it

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I’m finding this all rather puzzling. 

The workshop manual available on here for FFM is simple to follow


Only here once

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Agree about clips, on my g turbo the clips will only go back if I loosen and turn the distributor, then I have to set the timing again

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Remember that ignition timing at idle (10 degrees I think) is with both vacuum pipes at the distributor disconnected.   You may be including some vacuum advance in your 20 degrees.

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How good is your timing gun?   I have 3------ and 2 of them are close to useless.  Just one more thing for you to consider.

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9 hours ago, Sparky said:

I suggest we already know the aux sprocket is misaligned, as the distributor can only be rotated to achieve 20BTDC. Removing the cap is a load of aggro to prove what's obvious. Likewise the undertray, unless the belt is to be removed to make changes.  And that's only necessary if the 80 degree turn can't be done.

Yes, that is something I am planning to do this weekend.

1st thing is to check the timing again without vacuum, as @Roy Lewington has suggested. The reason being my original vacuum capsule on the distributor broke, and I replaced with another from the Lotus Excel. It may not be correct.

If everything remains, I will check the position of the rotor before I turn the distributor 80° clockwise and then shift the plug cables 90° anticlockwise and check again.

9 hours ago, ekwan said:

He's getting his knickers in a twist. Same questions being asked on the Facebook Lotus page and almost similar answers being provided. 😨

Unfortunately, the Esprit isn't suitable learning ground for a beginner.

 

 

9 hours ago, Sparky said:

Give him his due, he's getting there!  Baptism of fire though...

 

8 hours ago, Gis said:

Agree. Cut him some slack, there’s progress. It’s been a learning curve for most of us. 

 

8 hours ago, ekwan said:

Head to the Lotus Esprit FB page and see how much help I have sympathetically given before you pre-judge. 

@ekwan Eric has been feeding me with a lot of information on the Lotus Esprit FB page. Hope to meet him one day when he is back in Singapore. And you too @Gis !

4 hours ago, Roy Lewington said:

Remember that ignition timing at idle (10 degrees I think) is with both vacuum pipes at the distributor disconnected.   You may be including some vacuum advance in your 20 degrees.

Will be blocking off the vacuum to check. Thanks.

4 hours ago, Roy Lewington said:

How good is your timing gun?   I have 3------ and 2 of them are close to useless.  Just one more thing for you to consider.

I have 2, an old school type and the newer type that I can adjust the timing. Also used my workshop's to reconfirm.

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6 hours ago, Barrykearley said:

I’m finding this all rather puzzling. 

The workshop manual available on here for FFM is simple to follow

I think FFM only has the parts manual, not the service manual. Although I do have that ...

Thanks

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Quoted from the original post:

 I recently got my hand on a timing gun and decided to check my timing ...

and lo and behold I found something very weird.

at the cam pulleys, the timing marks aligned at 12° advance.

However, when I shot the gun at the flywheel, I got back 20°...

I cannot understand how it could be so ...

Perhaps he should not dabble in a "adjustable" timing gun but instead use just a simple one. Above statement shows he cannot figure out how to use a more advanced timing gun........perhaps even a timing gun, for that matter.

 

The weird thing is, the car is running fine, no misfire, my colourtune shows blue for all 4 cylinders, I was able to synchronise the carbs. I cannot understand how it can so if the ignition timing is 20° BTDC ...

Can you actually use Gunson's Colourtune to balance Dellorto carbs. I'd like to think so as this will save me the wholesale cost on a bank of manometers and a CO meter. On the other hand, can you get an engine to idle at 900-1000rpm with 20 deg advance timing...........I think NOT!

 

***** so I was told that the timing at the cam pulleys is different from the timing at the crank/flywheel. please verify that the correct ignition timing should be read at the crank/flywheel and not the cam pulleys?

Quote: "timing at cam pulleys is different from the timing at the crank/flywheel"...........??? .......

There is a fixed relationship and it's read at TDC. Fundamental gap in basic engine knowledge.

 

Quote: "please verify that the correct ignition timing should be read..........."

The guy has got more (sophisticated) equipment than I have, but obviously needs to learn what ignition timing is all about, how it comes about and the effect it has on engine performance, perhaps as well as how incorrect setting can damage an engine catastrophically. On the FB forum, I asked him to set the initial ignition timing "STATIC" but he was scratching his head over the terminology "STATIC TIMING".

 

Sorry to those slammers out there. But I believe someone with no fundamental knowledge of engines should not be messing about with a 4-carb Esprit, and I was trying to do him a favour, stop him before he blows anything up. I am not trying to insult a fellow owner (not in my place or character to do so), but he is all over the place.

My first question: What was the problem with his engine in the 1st place? Was it idling poorly, poor acceleration, emissions failure, hesitation etc etc etc etc etc? He has failed to say, despite me asking him several times on the Facebook Lotus Esprit page. I have tried my best to assist, but got nowhere, in fact regressed as time went by, as OP got flooded with tips beyond his ability and got confused out of his depth. I have a higher University degree in Automotive Engineering, and I have worked in engine design for some of the major car manufacturers in the UK and the USA. I have seen some pretty hairy things before I retired, but this tops them all. Short of me popping round to his place (groan!), my advice is that he finds a professional to lead him through by the hand in person.

We are all entitled to our opinions, but I do not want to see a car of a fellow country man burning up on the roadside.

1 hour ago, hspeck said:

I think FFM only has the parts manual, not the service manual. Although I do have that ...

Thanks

Isn't the X180 a 912 engine in a Steven's body? Loads of downloads for the 912 (+turbo) engine out there.

Edited by ekwan
typo

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8 hours ago, Roy Lewington said:

Remember that ignition timing at idle (10 degrees I think) is with both vacuum pipes at the distributor disconnected.   You may be including some vacuum advance in your 20 degrees.

At idle, throttle plates will be closed (well minisculy open). Carbs will be running on idle circuit and there will be literally no vacuum, let alone 10-20 degrees of advance.

 

Anyway, the proper way is to set it static (pipes don't matter), then check for minor adjustments at XXXX rpm (pipes disconnected, XXXXrpm = dependent on engine spec )........NOT the way you described above.

Edited by ekwan
added facts
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On 04/12/2018 at 08:45, hspeck said:

 

Having owned close to 30 cars in my lifetime, so mundane some wild, the Esprit really holds onto it's own .. I really would like to get it sorted to truly enjoy it..

Will keep this thread updated.

Cheers

What's the difference between the Esprit and any other 4-stroke internal combustion engine? Don't they all fundamentally work on the same principles.

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It’s just a car. Bloody ace one at that 👍


Only here once

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3 hours ago, Barrykearley said:

It’s just a car. Bloody ace one at that 👍

🤣🤣🤣 Let's not get overboard with this 🤣🤣🤣

13 hours ago, Roy Lewington said:

Remember that ignition timing at idle (10 degrees I think) is with both vacuum pipes at the distributor disconnected.   You may be including some vacuum advance in your 20 degrees.

 

Do we currently know which "spec" engine he has?

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6 hours ago, ekwan said:

Quoted from the original post:

 I recently got my hand on a timing gun and decided to check my timing ...

and lo and behold I found something very weird.

at the cam pulleys, the timing marks aligned at 12° advance.

However, when I shot the gun at the flywheel, I got back 20°...

I cannot understand how it could be so ...

Perhaps he should not dabble in a "adjustable" timing gun but instead use just a simple one. Above statement shows he cannot figure out how to use a more advanced timing gun........perhaps even a timing gun, for that matter.

 

The weird thing is, the car is running fine, no misfire, my colourtune shows blue for all 4 cylinders, I was able to synchronise the carbs. I cannot understand how it can so if the ignition timing is 20° BTDC ...

Can you actually use Gunson's Colourtune to balance Dellorto carbs. I'd like to think so as this will save me the wholesale cost on a bank of manometers and a CO meter. On the other hand, can you get an engine to idle at 900-1000rpm with 20 deg advance timing...........I think NOT!

 

***** so I was told that the timing at the cam pulleys is different from the timing at the crank/flywheel. please verify that the correct ignition timing should be read at the crank/flywheel and not the cam pulleys?

Quote: "timing at cam pulleys is different from the timing at the crank/flywheel"...........??? .......

There is a fixed relationship and it's read at TDC. Fundamental gap in basic engine knowledge.

 

Quote: "please verify that the correct ignition timing should be read..........."

The guy has got more (sophisticated) equipment than I have, but obviously needs to learn what ignition timing is all about, how it comes about and the effect it has on engine performance, perhaps as well as how incorrect setting can damage an engine catastrophically. On the FB forum, I asked him to set the initial ignition timing "STATIC" but he was scratching his head over the terminology "STATIC TIMING".

 

Sorry to those slammers out there. But I believe someone with no fundamental knowledge of engines should not be messing about with a 4-carb Esprit, and I was trying to do him a favour, stop him before he blows anything up. I am not trying to insult a fellow owner (not in my place or character to do so), but he is all over the place.

My first question: What was the problem with his engine in the 1st place? Was it idling poorly, poor acceleration, emissions failure, hesitation etc etc etc etc etc? He has failed to say, despite me asking him several times on the Facebook Lotus Esprit page. I have tried my best to assist, but got nowhere, in fact regressed as time went by, as OP got flooded with tips beyond his ability and got confused out of his depth. I have a higher University degree in Automotive Engineering, and I have worked in engine design for some of the major car manufacturers in the UK and the USA. I have seen some pretty hairy things before I retired, but this tops them all. Short of me popping round to his place (groan!), my advice is that he finds a professional to lead him through by the hand in person.

We are all entitled to our opinions, but I do not want to see a car of a fellow country man burning up on the roadside.

Isn't the X180 a 912 engine in a Steven's body? Loads of downloads for the 912 (+turbo) engine out there.

1. This was the first time I am using a timing gun. At least now I know how it works and how to use it correctly.

2. I did not use Gunson's colourtune to balance the carbs. I used it to check the combustion at the cylinders. The colour was bluish for all 4 cylinders, so I assume the the fuel is buring fine. I am using a Digisync to balance the carbs. It is sort of a digital Carbtune. I have never done it before, but I managed to get them quite balanced by following the procedures in the service manual. This is the manometer I am using. Easier compared to Carbtune as it is more stable and the digital readout really helps. http://thedigisync.com/

And, the car does runs fine. The exhaust outlet seems fine, no oil, no excessive fuel smell. The car pull strong.

What I could not understand was how can the car behaves as it is now if the ignition timing is at 20° BTDC? I have had cars with ignition timing that were incorrect and they all idle poorly, kin of lumpy, but not this Esprit. I still do not understand why now.

3. The timing at the cam pulleys were suggested to me by the shop that did the rebuild (and yeah, am gonna change shop). I was not sure so I asked around for confirmation. I don't see an issue with that, other that my automotive knowledge is very little. I am still learning.

4. Again, the car was not running rough, or idling poorly. I was just curious. And I am glad I was curious, as I realized that the car can be better than it is now. The shop assumed many things, and probably felt that as they were the "prrofessionals", they knew better. But it has came to show that they were wrong in many things. So much for being an "expert" in automotive repairs.

As it is, the car is running fine. Other than a leak at the crank and the drive shaft, all seems well. So you probably will not see me stranded by the roadside any time soon.

I think you probably know the situation here in Singapore. Most shops are either unwilling to touch an old car (takes time and shop space!!), or have limited knowledge of older cars as most of the older mechanics have retired. Unlike your home country, we have a lack of expertise here. So I guess I have to try to learn as much as I can about the Esprit in case someone screws me up further.

Have a good weekend.  

 

IMG-20181125-WA0010(1)_resized.jpeg

12 minutes ago, ekwan said:

🤣🤣🤣 Let's not get overboard with this 🤣🤣🤣

 

Do we currently know which "spec" engine he has?

https://www.thelotusforums.com/forums/topic/97682-912-na-hc-ignition-timing/

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This is the exact image you uploaded re: ignition timing figures.

23610524_Screenshot2018-12-07at5_22_23PM.png.a3de970c860c1adbfe5315014a991d57.pngIn the same breath, you are stating that the spec sheet says that the static timing is 9deg but someone else on the internet says 10deg.

But if you read things properly.............

1129292618_Screenshot2018-12-07at5_25_08PM.png.88cf2ece6967702087b5a3f090b0b9c5.png.......the top of the table says "All figures +2deg". That is to say static timing is between 9deg -----> 11deg static.

?????

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With due respect to Eric K's credentials, would he care to reconsider his claim that the car at idle has no engine vacuum? My understanding indicates something on the order of 14" HG or more. Absent vacuum, what would drive fuel and air, however minute, into the intake tracts? Clearly the vacuum capsule, where fitted, is driven by way of vacuum.

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Thankfully, I haven’t dabbled with distributors and timing for many years, probably as many as 20, but when I did, the vacuum can was always disconnected prior to timing as it was a load-sensitive device that adjusted and increased spark advance depending on vacuum manifold depression for fuel economy, and was effectively operated independently of any mechanical advance.

I assume this is the case here?


Margate Exotics.

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9 hours ago, drdoom said:

With due respect to Eric K's credentials, would he care to reconsider his claim that the car at idle has no engine vacuum? My understanding indicates something on the order of 14" HG or more. Absent vacuum, what would drive fuel and air, however minute, into the intake tracts? Clearly the vacuum capsule, where fitted, is driven by way of vacuum.

397624474_Screenshot2018-12-08at9_27_37AM.thumb.png.f17fab926229ee0945fd21b74bc78a37.pngThis is the idle circuit for a DCOE/DHLA type carburettor. At idle, the throttle plate is mainly closed as the idle bypass circuit functions; the fuel-air mixture bypasses the throttle body. The throttle plate is usually opened just a "crack" in order it doesn't rest on the bore thus creating a "wear ridge" over time. Under such conditions, there is little or no air flowing past the throttle plate. Yes, you are absolutely correct that there must be a vacuum to pull the air-fuel mixture into the engine, but majority flows through the by-pass circuit, and very little past the throttle plates.

Under these conditions, there is little (if any) vacuum. After all, if there is liquid flow of any kind, there must also be present,  a pressure difference, albeit great or small (no pressure differential, no flow....logical, plus a whole bunch of engineering mathematical equations). At idle, the minuscule amount of vacuum (if any) is probably insufficient to shift the vacuum diaphragm against the spring forces within.

Look at the diagram below. At idle, air intake by and large bypasses the main air intake. Air for idling is drawn into the emulsion tubes via a hole next to the idle jets (usually unfiltered air, no. 13).

1346647037_Screenshot2018-12-08at3_38_19PM.png.bf86a695987f7c3553b03bbe5bd34fee.png

I would therefore ask you, if the vacuum take-off for the ignition advance would therefore be located on the engine side, or the air filter side of the throttle plate? Or perhaps you are referring to a VV carburettor?

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23 hours ago, hspeck said:

1. This was the first time I am using a timing gun. At least now I know how it works and how to use it correctly.

2. I did not use Gunson's colourtune to balance the carbs. I used it to check the combustion at the cylinders. The colour was bluish for all 4 cylinders, so I assume the the fuel is buring fine. I am using a Digisync to balance the carbs. It is sort of a digital Carbtune. I have never done it before, but I managed to get them quite balanced by following the procedures in the service manual. This is the manometer I am using. Easier compared to Carbtune as it is more stable and the digital readout really helps. http://thedigisync.com/

And, the car does runs fine. The exhaust outlet seems fine, no oil, no excessive fuel smell. The car pull strong.

What I could not understand was how can the car behaves as it is now if the ignition timing is at 20° BTDC? I have had cars with ignition timing that were incorrect and they all idle poorly, kin of lumpy, but not this Esprit. I still do not understand why now.

3. The timing at the cam pulleys were suggested to me by the shop that did the rebuild (and yeah, am gonna change shop). I was not sure so I asked around for confirmation. I don't see an issue with that, other that my automotive knowledge is very little. I am still learning.

4. Again, the car was not running rough, or idling poorly. I was just curious. And I am glad I was curious, as I realized that the car can be better than it is now. The shop assumed many things, and probably felt that as they were the "prrofessionals", they knew better. But it has came to show that they were wrong in many things. So much for being an "expert" in automotive repairs.

As it is, the car is running fine. Other than a leak at the crank and the drive shaft, all seems well. So you probably will not see me stranded by the roadside any time soon.

I think you probably know the situation here in Singapore. Most shops are either unwilling to touch an old car (takes time and shop space!!), or have limited knowledge of older cars as most of the older mechanics have retired. Unlike your home country, we have a lack of expertise here. So I guess I have to try to learn as much as I can about the Esprit in case someone screws me up further.

Have a good weekend.  

 

IMG-20181125-WA0010(1)_resized.jpeg

https://www.thelotusforums.com/forums/topic/97682-912-na-hc-ignition-timing/

 

I looked at your posting above. You assumed your engine is a spec 10 based on the fact it was a 912 HC. This may be a fact with the G cars, but may not the case with S vehicles (I cannot be sure about that). So did you read the distributor part number off your car to be sure since different distributors will have different advance curves.

In any case, your readings of the chart are incorrect (please do correct me if I am wrong). For spec 10 engines, ignition timing at idle is 10 deg BTDC (vacuum disconnected). Below 1000rpm, timing is 10deg BTDC, at 2000rpm->18deg BTDC and at 3000rpm->26deg BTDC. Absolute timing numbers are different from spec 1 engines @ 2000 and 3000rpm. (But only if your engine is truly a spec 10)

 

Screenshot 2018-12-08 at 4.11.37 PM.png

Edited by ekwan

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1 hour ago, ekwan said:

 

I looked at your posting above. You assumed your engine is a spec 10 based on the fact it was a 912 HC. This may be a fact with the G cars, but may not the case with S vehicles (I cannot be sure about that). So did you read the distributor part number off your car to be sure since different distributors will have different advance curves.

In any case, your readings of the chart are incorrect (please do correct me if I am wrong). For spec 10 engines, ignition timing at idle is 10 deg BTDC (vacuum disconnected). Below 1000rpm, timing is 10deg BTDC, at 2000rpm->18deg BTDC and at 3000rpm->26deg BTDC. Absolute timing numbers are different from spec 1 engines @ 2000 and 3000rpm. (But only if your engine is truly a spec 10)

 

Screenshot 2018-12-08 at 4.11.37 PM.png

Thanks.

I am not sure myself. Unfortunately i did not read the distributor number when the engine was on the floor.

 

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I really like this thread.

Despite having taken my engine out a couple of times, changed the cambelt, checked alignment, timing, combustion, have the books, read the guides, manuals etc etc, I am learning lots and not ashamed to admit it. It sometimes just takes a different way of explaining I guess?

HsPeck is doing well - has taken both advice and criticism with good grace and is clearly a little isolated where they are, yet keen and determined to understand, progress and hopefully succeed. And all with the help of the forum (and FB, whatever that is...) This is what its all about I think.

We all had to start somewhere and best to begin where there is willing help a-plenty. 

It never hurts to start at the beginning - "explain it to me as if I were a 7 yr old" [MichaelScott - he did then downgrade it to a 6 yr old 😂]

We all have differing levels of understanding of things, and confidence limits within which we tend to assume others reside. Thats not always the case, as I have discovered to my cost over the years. I am also grateful to those who have cut me some slack when I'm trying to understand/do something outside my ken.

 

 

 

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"Intellectuals solve problems; geniuses prevent them." Albert Einstein

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